Zerus/Baqqfisch's Alpha Feedback [WIP]

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dbltnk
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Re: DressLessToImpress's Alpha Feedback [WIP]

Postby dbltnk » 24 May 2016, 16:18

Good feeback!

Agreed on the siege mode, needs tweaking. Will happen.

Defender's advantage: Feels right to me at this poing but I'll keep an eye on it. If you cannot ever win a siege as an attacker then I'll make changes, promised.

Can you please explain your #2 range thingy a bit more in detail, maybe show me a video? Not sure what exactly you're describing.

Alex

zerus
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Re: DressLessToImpress's Alpha Feedback [WIP]

Postby zerus » 24 May 2016, 16:33

About defender's advantage:
Having a strong defender's advantage is fine, but the problem is that it just adds up considering higher numbers.

1) You have an easier time ganking people and reviving your own
2) You have an easier time keeping the "poke" phase going if you've got losses
3) You can use the revive-mechanic to "burst heal" and buff up players.
4) You have an easier time defending multiple spots
5) You have an easier time bringing new gear into the fight
6) Even if you got ganked, you're not out of the fight for long. You'll come back up buffed within a very short time frame.
So these are just 5 advantages, compared to just 1 I can think of for the attacker: Defenders come through the gate which is a chokepoint.

So the issue is not about defender's advantage per se, but about how well it compliments having a higher player-count.

About #2 range thingy; we'll make a video really quick.

EDIT:

While trying it out on each other, we couldn't reproduce it. When trying it out on Red Raiders(from USA), we had this problem again. So we're thinking that this might be a lag issue or if people have higher pings compared to yours(which generally makes chars jitter)

What we meant was basically this:
1) You are chasing a target
2) You're casting a skill, for example Ensnaring Shot(because thats where we experienced it the most)
3) The enemy is still clearly in the range, but is not getting hit. This looked like it was an issue with the range indicator, but as I said between me and Baqqfisch this was fine and we hit each other properly.

So yeah, thinking that #2 is just a result of ping difference/lag.

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Re: DressLessToImpress's Alpha Feedback [WIP]

Postby ManuKuma » 24 May 2016, 16:56

zerus wrote:1) You have an easier time ganking people and reviving your own
2) You have an easier time keeping the "poke" phase going if you've got losses
3) You can use the revive-mechanic to "burst heal" and buff up players.
4) You have an easier time defending multiple spots
5) You have an easier time bringing new gear into the fight
6) Even if you got ganked, you're not out of the fight for long. You'll come back up buffed within a very short time frame.


That matches my concerns for the exaggerated effect of numbers and limited playability for small clans or groups. Also touching on the missing "mob" opposition for a dominant clan issue.

Probably difficult to solve, since advantage by numbers is quite natural...

Something specifically tailored is needed that evens out the advantage of numbers - e.g. some kind of debuff if more than a certain number of players cluster (maybe distribute energy flow per area reducing energy regeneration for bigger groups)? or e.g. dimishing returns for damage and cc from a large number of sources (maybe there is some resistance building up and only the top 3 damage dealers to a player do full damage and additional damage dealers do reduced damage)(all scaled by current health, so no reduction for fully healed players)?


Also: the "sacrificial kill" of allies to buff them is something I see as a problem ...

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Re: DressLessToImpress's Alpha Feedback [WIP]

Postby dbltnk » 24 May 2016, 18:37

Point taken. Might remove ressurrect's heal component (or tone it down at least).

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Re: Zerus/Baqqfisch's Alpha Feedback [WIP]

Postby zerus » 10 Sep 2016, 20:02

So I've done a bit of research and during that I came up with a few things I'd like to talk about.

No particular order/priority, pretty much just as I came up with them:

Donation System

- The donation system is a neat idea to create conflict between the clans, but at its current state it can also be abused quite easily. As I understand, clans get respect based of their respective donation points. So by creating a clan and donating, you not only gain respect, but others lose it as well. This way bigger clans can actively fight against other clans by creating sub-clans.

One possible solution would be to have a total pool of respect distributed(i.e. 300k respect) and then distribute it to the top X. For example Top 10 would be 90k for the first, 70k for the second and so on. Showing the current top placements live would also encourage more conflict as people can actually see how much impact the current donation would have.

Combat

- Ranged skills currently do more damage the further you are away. This is counter-intuitive imho, as projectiles should have a fallof range. Right now, a melee gets punished for being out of range and not catching up twice: Melee can't apply damage and will also get hit harder. Since right now most ranged builds also have the easiest methods of getting away(due to robe and leather being so mobile by default, and staff/bow/totem skills supporting that) it creates an even harder scenario for melees.

Also, whenever a melee actually gets close and manages to catch a ranged player, that player suddenly not only loses his advantage but also gains a disadvantage. So you have this sitatuion of "melee not in range = strong advantage for ranged" and "melee in range = strong advantage for melee".

I'd like to see ranged skills start at maximum efficiency and then fall of based on distance. This way, a melee catching a ranged player has to mean it, and make a decision on whether or not to actually engage, as he well be able to attack but also get more dmg in return.

- I've run a test on Salvo vs Snipe on the practice dummies: Salvo has a theoretical DPS of 27,7~ and Snipe has a theoritcal DPS of 55. (DMG per hit / CastTime + Cooldown). In reality Snipe has a DPS of 46 and Salvo a DPS of 26 for me. Thats almost a 20% drop for Snipe - I suspect that this is due to lag and this indicates that fast/low dmg skills that result in a higher DPS are at a disadvantage right now.

There are multiple ways to solve this, however I think the easiest solution would be to get rid of the need for auto attacks altogether, or at least greatly reduce their impact. Right now Snipe is the most effecient skill for a Bow-build and it's stupid to not utilize it. There's no decision involved, nothing really changing. If you're low on energy and still need to do dmg, Snipe is a good choice. If your opponent is running away, Snipe is a good choice. If you're just poking, Snipe is the best choice. If you just need to apply the last bit of dmg to land a kill, Snipe is a good choice.

There are multiple ways to counter-balance: nerfing auto attacks, buffing other skills, changing character base stats and so on. It is a huge topic but overall I feel like it would greatly improve the combat system if you had to put more thought and decision making into your skills/usage. (As indicated in my other posts as well).

- A lot of the UI and descriptions for skills are lacking information or don't make sense. Aggressive Leap lists an increased dmg of 120 to 120 - does it stay the same? Or is it just not shown correctly?
- Healing Totem does not state how long that Totem stays
- Incenirate/Fire Bolt does not list how long its DoT is applied, this is the case for many skills.
- Self Sacrifice does not list how much health is lost

In general, I think the tooltips/skill descriptions should offer a lot more information than they do now. Just a quick mockup that doesn't require a lot of changes from the current state:

http://i.imgur.com/wufr9m3.png

http://i.imgur.com/9Gw0Dmo.png

Also hinting back to the post about conditions! :)

- Lastly I want to talk about events: I'm not a huge fan of King Of The Hill. I think it's an easy mode to both create and follow as a player, but it also suffers from a lot of problems that other modes don't have.
But if events will stay KotH, I'd like to see more opportunities to work around that.

For example, I shouldn't have to wait 5 minutes as a solo player to get some resources. Options like destroying carcasses/meteors in change for fewer resources but faster extraction would be awesome. Players could wait, risking getting attacked by other players, or simply extract fewer resources but have a safer approach. This should not be instant of course, but should be faster than 5 minutes.

Another alternative would be to be able "work" the events: I.e. you use water to help cool off a meteor, which is a channeled ability that results in you only having to wait 2 minutes 30 seconds instead of 5 mintues.

Anything to make the interactions with the events more than just "wait 5 minutes"! Because even if I get a fight, it doesn't really feel that fun after you've done your 20th meteor.

This is it for now! More to follow :)
Last edited by zerus on 10 Sep 2016, 21:42, edited 1 time in total.

ManuKuma
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Re: Zerus/Baqqfisch's Alpha Feedback [WIP]

Postby ManuKuma » 10 Sep 2016, 20:44

Hoping for a lot more variation in event mechanics, too - see thread about events.
Guess that had less priority than other stuff - I now would like to see another phase of quick and sketchy implementation to see how the game will work outside the decent pvp...

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Re: Zerus/Baqqfisch's Alpha Feedback [WIP]

Postby dbltnk » 12 Sep 2016, 12:34

zerus wrote:One possible solution would be to have a total pool of respect distributed(i.e. 300k respect) and then distribute it to the top X. For example Top 10 would be 90k for the first, 70k for the second and so on.

That is exactly how it works right now. Probably not obvious from the UI.

zerus wrote:Showing the current top placements live would also encourage more conflict as people can actually see how much impact the current donation would have.

Yeah I think so too. Needs a bit more transparency. Will add that to our to-dos.

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dbltnk
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Re: Zerus/Baqqfisch's Alpha Feedback [WIP]

Postby dbltnk » 12 Sep 2016, 12:39

zerus wrote: - A lot of the UI and descriptions for skills are lacking information or don't make sense. Aggressive Leap lists an increased dmg of 120 to 120 - does it stay the same? Or is it just not shown correctly?
- Healing Totem does not state how long that Totem stays
- Incenirate/Fire Bolt does not list how long its DoT is applied, this is the case for many skills.
- Self Sacrifice does not list how much health is lost

In general, I think the tooltips/skill descriptions should offer a lot more information than they do now. Just a quick mockup that doesn't require a lot of changes from the current state:

http://i.imgur.com/wufr9m3.png

http://i.imgur.com/9Gw0Dmo.png

Also hinting back to the post about conditions! :)

I totally agree. If you take a look at how Battlerite (the quasi-success to to Bloodline Champion) handles skill info popups and conditions then you can see what I would like to develop in a (hopefully near) future. Plus a bit of GW1 influence since we have so many more abilities and effects. It's on the list bit not yet with the highest priority.

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Re: Zerus/Baqqfisch's Alpha Feedback [WIP]

Postby dbltnk » 12 Sep 2016, 12:40

zerus wrote: - Lastly I want to talk about events: I'm not a huge fan of King Of The Hill. I think it's an easy mode to both create and follow as a player, but it also suffers from a lot of problems that other modes don't have.
But if events will stay KotH, I'd like to see more opportunities to work around that.

For example, I shouldn't have to wait 5 minutes as a solo player to get some resources. Options like destroying carcasses/meteors in change for fewer resources but faster extraction would be awesome. Players could wait, risking getting attacked by other players, or simply extract fewer resources but have a safer approach. This should not be instant of course, but should be faster than 5 minutes.

Another alternative would be to be able "work" the events: I.e. you use water to help cool off a meteor, which is a channeled ability that results in you only having to wait 2 minutes 30 seconds instead of 5 mintues.

Anything to make the interactions with the events more than just "wait 5 minutes"! Because even if I get a fight, it doesn't really feel that fun after you've done your 20th meteor.

This is it for now! More to follow :)

I agree here, as well. There is a stack of notes right next to my key board for how to change the meteor, carcass, caravan and resource fight events. Plus a ton of idead for new events. I'll make sure that they are fun to play but not too long when solo, challenging when grouped and good sources of PvP. This is on our to-do list for September and October.

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Re: Zerus/Baqqfisch's Alpha Feedback [WIP]

Postby dbltnk » 12 Sep 2016, 12:44

zerus wrote:- Ranged skills currently do more damage the further you are away. This is counter-intuitive imho, as projectiles should have a fallof range. Right now, a melee gets punished for being out of range and not catching up twice: Melee can't apply damage and will also get hit harder. Since right now most ranged builds also have the easiest methods of getting away(due to robe and leather being so mobile by default, and staff/bow/totem skills supporting that) it creates an even harder scenario for melees.

Also, whenever a melee actually gets close and manages to catch a ranged player, that player suddenly not only loses his advantage but also gains a disadvantage. So you have this sitatuion of "melee not in range = strong advantage for ranged" and "melee in range = strong advantage for melee".

I'd like to see ranged skills start at maximum efficiency and then fall of based on distance. This way, a melee catching a ranged player has to mean it, and make a decision on whether or not to actually engage, as he well be able to attack but also get more dmg in return.

- I've run a test on Salvo vs Snipe on the practice dummies: Salvo has a theoretical DPS of 27,7~ and Snipe has a theoritcal DPS of 55. (DMG per hit / CastTime + Cooldown). In reality Snipe has a DPS of 46 and Salvo a DPS of 26 for me. Thats almost a 20% drop for Snipe - I suspect that this is due to lag and this indicates that fast/low dmg skills that result in a higher DPS are at a disadvantage right now.

There are multiple ways to solve this, however I think the easiest solution would be to get rid of the need for auto attacks altogether, or at least greatly reduce their impact. Right now Snipe is the most effecient skill for a Bow-build and it's stupid to not utilize it. There's no decision involved, nothing really changing. If you're low on energy and still need to do dmg, Snipe is a good choice. If your opponent is running away, Snipe is a good choice. If you're just poking, Snipe is the best choice. If you just need to apply the last bit of dmg to land a kill, Snipe is a good choice.

There are multiple ways to counter-balance: nerfing auto attacks, buffing other skills, changing character base stats and so on. It is a huge topic but overall I feel like it would greatly improve the combat system if you had to put more thought and decision making into your skills/usage. (As indicated in my other posts as well).


Now this is a tricky one. The reason for the "more damage at range" approach is because I want to make sure that players behave as you would expect it. So I expect melees to try to get in close range and archers to try to stay at range. Changing ranged damage calculation to the opposite (more at low range) or just dishing out the same damage at all range has (at some point in the past) lead to a lot of "close range melee" which feels weird.

2nd argument: Especially in a game where it is actually really hard to hit someone at range there actually is a trade off to make in the current system: Do I do more damage if I hit at range - which is hard - or lower damage up close - but I am basically guaranteed to hit? I do enjoy this over the solution which you propose in which I would just always try to be at point blank range and get bose an accuracy and damage bonus.


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