Zerus/Baqqfisch's Alpha Feedback [WIP]

Here you can talk about everything related to The Exiled.
zerus
Wiki Content Creator
Posts: 202
Joined: 04 Nov 2015, 21:00

Re: Zerus/Baqqfisch's Alpha Feedback [WIP]

Postby zerus » 12 Sep 2016, 13:46

dbltnk wrote:
zerus wrote:One possible solution would be to have a total pool of respect distributed(i.e. 300k respect) and then distribute it to the top X. For example Top 10 would be 90k for the first, 70k for the second and so on.

That is exactly how it works right now. Probably not obvious from the UI.

zerus wrote:Showing the current top placements live would also encourage more conflict as people can actually see how much impact the current donation would have.

Yeah I think so too. Needs a bit more transparency. Will add that to our to-dos.

I see! I was under the impression that pretty much everyone, including bottom clans, would gain respect. But I guess we just never had enough clans actually donating to realize that this is not the case.

UI cleanup + live donation rankings would be awesome :)

dbltnk wrote:
zerus wrote: (snip)

I totally agree. If you take a look at how Battlerite (the quasi-success to to Bloodline Champion) handles skill info popups and conditions then you can see what I would like to develop in a (hopefully near) future. Plus a bit of GW1 influence since we have so many more abilities and effects. It's on the list bit not yet with the highest priority.


Great to hear - seen Battlerite on Teamliquid forums. Will probably check that out when it goes into early access.

dbltnk wrote:
zerus wrote: (snip)

I agree here, as well. There is a stack of notes right next to my key board for how to change the meteor, carcass, caravan and resource fight events. Plus a ton of idead for new events. I'll make sure that they are fun to play but not too long when solo, challenging when grouped and good sources of PvP. This is on our to-do list for September and October.


If I might add, I would also like to see more crafting opportunities involved to enable higher risk/rewards. I.e. items that increase resource output, but cost a basic investment of resources. So if you lose it in your first trip, you're at a loss. Secure 2-3 resource trips and you've made a plus of resources.

There was a discussion on giving players skills that would do this(i.e. increase carry weight), and you said that it would interfere with combat and I agree. But I feel like there's this crafting system that would fit perfectly for stuff like htis. It could be improved to offer players valuable crafting decisions. Could also include finer resources for more advanced base building to give more meaningful decisions in building placement (cheap resources / low-efficiency settlement; expensive resources / high-efficiency settlement) similar to expansions in RTS games.

Many ways to make world events more interesting and offer different interactions for different playstyles! Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

dbltnk wrote:
zerus wrote:(snip)


Now this is a tricky one. The reason for the "more damage at range" approach is because I want to make sure that players behave as you would expect it. So I expect melees to try to get in close range and archers to try to stay at range. Changing ranged damage calculation to the opposite (more at low range) or just dishing out the same damage at all range has (at some point in the past) lead to a lot of "close range melee" which feels weird.


I see your point but I raise you Salvo! The ranged skill that makes any fight involving a bow a dance around the pole :D, especially if you like weird builds.
Right now the dynamic between Ranged / Melee in 1v1 is really weird for me to judge. On one hand,bow/leather can dictate the fighting range easily. If I want, I can poke. If I get caught, I can use interrupting shot. If I want to, I do Salvo to heavily burst down my opponent. On the other hand, as soon as Robe is involved, I want to stay as far away as possible (and have all the means to), because thats where I'm most safe and have the most dmg potential.

But one important point here are group fights, where this dynamic changes. In group fights especially ranged players have an easy time staying at range, being at their most aggressive potential when they're the safest. Isn't that counter-intuitive? If I want to do more dmg, I should risk something. Of course now you could raise "Salvo!" but if we crunch the numbers, using Snipe is actually a smarter choice here in longer lasting fights.


2nd argument: Especially in a game where it is actually really hard to hit someone at range there actually is a trade off to make in the current system: Do I do more damage if I hit at range - which is hard - or lower damage up close - but I am basically guaranteed to hit? I do enjoy this over the solution which you propose in which I would just always try to be at point blank range and get bose an accuracy and damage bonus.


This is what, when discussing this with friends, is basically the consensus as well.

But why not leave this choice up to the player instead of implementing that in the core system(which is the result of having Snipe being so dominant)?
I would love it if I had the choice to build something that works completely the opposite way to create a different playstyle (within reasonable bounds of course)
The core argument about this is basically any bow build without Snipe is an inferior one. And Snipe, even though it's just 1/10 of my build, dictates my playstyle by quite a bit.

Personally, and thats really mostly personal preference, I would love to see the skill combos dictating playstyles instead of a few skills. But both can work, i.e. if you have core-defining skills that make up how a build works(giving skills categories and limiting the amount of skills choosable from any category) and give these skills a similar "power level" but different mechanics.


EDIT: Whoops, just deleted the last paragraphs by accident while ediitng.

User avatar
dbltnk
Game Developer
Posts: 2544
Joined: 27 Feb 2014, 12:52

Re: Zerus/Baqqfisch's Alpha Feedback [WIP]

Postby dbltnk » 12 Sep 2016, 14:07

Hehe yeah. I think there is a good chance that at some point I might turn Snipe/Sweep/Magic Bolt/etc. into a weapon's default attack and remove them from the normal skill bar and upgrades. Right now you do have to use them in 95% of all cases.

zerus
Wiki Content Creator
Posts: 202
Joined: 04 Nov 2015, 21:00

Re: Zerus/Baqqfisch's Alpha Feedback [WIP]

Postby zerus » 12 Sep 2016, 14:10

dbltnk wrote:Hehe yeah. I think there is a good chance that at some point I might turn Snipe/Sweep/Magic Bolt/etc. into a weapon's default attack and remove them from the normal skill bar and upgrades. Right now you do have to use them in 95% of all cases.


If that means we can have more skills/combos that dictate playstyle and offer more choices, I'm all up for that!

In any case, I think the game really shines with interesting combat mechanics. Forceful Throw alone has created so many fun fights where I've been either laughing or shouting at my screen(depending on if I was the target or not), I definitely want more dynamics like this.

ManuKuma
Posts: 313
Joined: 11 Feb 2015, 17:59

Re: Zerus/Baqqfisch's Alpha Feedback [WIP]

Postby ManuKuma » 13 Sep 2016, 22:50

How about linking ranged accuracy or damage to recent amount of movement to make shooting while running less efficient?

User avatar
dbltnk
Game Developer
Posts: 2544
Joined: 27 Feb 2014, 12:52

Re: Zerus/Baqqfisch's Alpha Feedback [WIP]

Postby dbltnk » 14 Sep 2016, 11:14

I would not decouple accuracy from player skill since that is going to be extremely annoying. A damage reduction would be possible but very hard to design in a way for it to feel obvious and right to players.

zerus
Wiki Content Creator
Posts: 202
Joined: 04 Nov 2015, 21:00

Re: Zerus/Baqqfisch's Alpha Feedback [WIP]

Postby zerus » 14 Sep 2016, 11:29

Interesting thought imho!

Punishing movement with a stat reduction, or promoting standing still via stat boost, could be very interesting. As stated in other posts, the fact that you can pretty much run & gun all the time can be an annoyance in fights. Giving players incentives to be stationary, even if just for a few skills, could make combat pace more fun.

On top of my head: Give players a "Focused" buff when not moving for >1s, then give some skills an increased effect when Focused buff is active.

Alex, this combat system offers wayy too many opportunities. Pls nerf.

User avatar
dbltnk
Game Developer
Posts: 2544
Joined: 27 Feb 2014, 12:52

Re: Zerus/Baqqfisch's Alpha Feedback [WIP]

Postby dbltnk » 14 Sep 2016, 12:13

zerus wrote:On top of my head: Give players a "Focused" buff when not moving for >1s, then give some skills an increased effect when Focused buff is active.

Interesting thought indeed. Might be more fun than Stunlock Studio's system where most basic attacks make your character stand still for half a second.

ManuKuma
Posts: 313
Joined: 11 Feb 2015, 17:59

Re: Zerus/Baqqfisch's Alpha Feedback [WIP]

Postby ManuKuma » 14 Sep 2016, 20:52

dbltnk wrote:
zerus wrote:On top of my head: Give players a "Focused" buff when not moving for >1s, then give some skills an increased effect when Focused buff is active.

Interesting thought indeed. Might be more fun than Stunlock Studio's system where most basic attacks make your character stand still for half a second.


Another option: vary the slowdown from casting per skill - some skills cause stronger/longer slowdowns than others. Kind of non binary variant of Stunlocks mechanic. E.g.: most melee attacks might have very little or no slowdown while ranged skills that imply focus or accurate aiming would have higher slowdowns.

ManuKuma
Posts: 313
Joined: 11 Feb 2015, 17:59

Re: Zerus/Baqqfisch's Alpha Feedback [WIP]

Postby ManuKuma » 14 Sep 2016, 21:08

dbltnk wrote:I would not decouple accuracy from player skill since that is going to be extremely annoying. A damage reduction would be possible but very hard to design in a way for it to feel obvious and right to players.


Some of the more pseudo-realistic FPS do just that: linking accuracy to stance and movement - feels natural there. You just need to give feedback - a common solution is a scaleable reticule: bigger = less accurate. Then the use of this factor becomes an element of skilled active playing.

From my experience, hidden information requires the more passive reading, analysis, learning and memorizing skills, while visible information shifts the focus to the more active quick decision making, hand-eye coordination, quickness skills. I personally favour something like 25% passive 75% active games ... those usually have a nicer learning curve, too.

zerus
Wiki Content Creator
Posts: 202
Joined: 04 Nov 2015, 21:00

Re: Zerus/Baqqfisch's Alpha Feedback [WIP]

Postby zerus » 14 Sep 2016, 21:42

It feels natural in shooters because you can't see the bullets. You just see the gun firing, and you are pretty much always aware of the concept of spraying. So you not hitting despite directly aiming at the target is kind of expected behaviour with "run & gun".

For The Exiled though you expect that if your projectile hits, it does damage. So to achieve the same feeling you'd need to have projectiles go off path or something, which imho messes too much with how the skills work. The game is already a lot about actually hitting your opponent, adding RNG to that sounds awkward. Working with whats already there and existent(stat boosts/reduction) sounds more fun to experiment with!

(But well, thats just, like, my opinion man :P)


Return to “General Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests