Fixing Respawn

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Electrick
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Fixing Respawn

Postby Electrick » 05 Nov 2015, 06:21

The current respawn system that the devs have implemented is more flawed in comparison to before. The current respawn system consists of dying on the spot, pressing f5 to go to a respawn point that you're either bound to or not depending on the distance from which you were killed from that respawn point. After respawn it is possible to be executed again to be forced to respawn at an entirely different point from before. This, in a number of ways is pretty flawed.

1. What is the point to binding to a respawn point if I end up spawning to another point entirely? The reason I bind to a specific point is because it is most convenient for me. This applies for a number of reasons. For example a clan siege. Being able to bind to your home point is necessary for a clan siege for tactical purposes. Currently, If my clan was being sieged at their base they would be forced to walk across the map to their own base, giving the defending clan a heavy penalty for dying, and losing said siege because they're inconveniently placed across the map forcing to regroup and send waves of men at their OWN BASE to recapture the point. Even our own base has been occupied to enemy clans because of this inconvenience, giving the enemy team a heavy advantage if their base is conveniently close by.

2. The lack of spawnable areas.. I understand the map isn't that big, but to be honest there isn't enough spawn points in the game. The only points you can bind to are veteran oases which there are only 3 on the map which are inconveniently placed near the middle of the map. The Newcomer Oases are not re-bindable once you have binded anywhere else. There is also 1 clan oasis assuming your clan has a settlement to bind to, but when the game grows bigger this will be only a minority of the players.

3. F5 for life... The f5 button is the ultimate way to deny an execute if you know you can't revive on the spot, denying the extra 25 xp for the person who wants to execute you. 25 xp isn't much, but honestly whats the point of an execute button if the person is just going to f5 to deny the xp anyway. Yes, I know its mainly for getting rid of an enemy so they don't respawn in the middle of a fight, but really there shouldn't be an F5 button. Either you get executed, revived, or neither and just revive on the spot.

4. Lastly, my last issue is finishing off enemy's who just spawned near a spawn point. This is yet another issue with the current respawn system. A player shouldn't be executed at a respawn point shortly after being executed already. It just doesn't make any sense, so getting executed just to be executed AGAIN to respawn at a different point is just ridiculous.

Solution?: Now I don't know if my approach is the best approach but I think a respawn system should function a little like this:
1st, take out F5 to spawn to a respawn point/bound point completely, like i mentioned before we don't need this. 2nd, if a player has been executed already make it so there is a cooldown before that player can be executed again. 3rd, make the game prioritize bound points when executed. 4th, add more veteran oases or make it so Newcomer oases are bindable.

This is a suggestion to the Devs because I know there are plenty of people in my clan who do not enjoy the current spawning system. This is my own personal in depth look into and my suggestions for fixing it, if you want a proper spawning system.

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IKShadow
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Re: Fixing Respawn

Postby IKShadow » 05 Nov 2015, 11:00

Solution?: Now I don't know if my approach is the best approach but I think a respawn system should function a little like this:
1st, take out F5 to spawn to a respawn point/bound point completely, like i mentioned before we don't need this. 2nd, if a player has been executed already make it so there is a cooldown before that player can be executed again. 3rd, make the game prioritize bound points when executed. 4th, add more veteran oases or make it so Newcomer oases are bindable.


1. I would suggest removal of F5 since it does not server any purpose as player still have to wait.
2. Remove the bind points and you always resurrect to point closes to you eg there is also no need for newcomer oases. ( During the siege's the defenders resurrect point should be the one in the settlement.)
3. Reset the wait time when ganked, so if player is just about to be resurrected and he was ganked his timer should restart from 0.
FUtilez.com - Everybody Gets Ganked
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dbltnk
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Re: Fixing Respawn

Postby dbltnk » 05 Nov 2015, 13:38

Hey guys,

thanks for the feedback!

I've read your posts and also the many emails and in-game remarks that were directed at me over the last days. I feel your pain, the current system is flawed in many ways and needs to be improved.

Change #1: Right now you do not spawn at your bind point when you get killed/ganked withint a 75 unit radius of it. This is shit. Its hard to notice and often too far away. We will change this in a way that we trigger the respawn-away-from-home only if you die withhin a manually designated zone around your bind point. For settlements this will most likely within the walls. For oases this will likely be a smaller radius.

Why does this rule even exist? It serves two purposes:

a) To remove the amount of spawn-killing newbies have to endure. If you get killed at your spawn point 15 times in a row and never have a chance to get away then this leads to a lot of (justified) rage-quitting. Teleporting them away to a different spawn was a fast fix to this problem. We might change this into a popup that asks you where you'd like to spawn and offer you a couple more options.

b) To get the defending clan out of their settlement if the attacker is wiping them there. It just is not a great experience if you manage to kick an enemy clan out of their settlement and then they insta-respawn there in full force after 5 seconds. There is a need for some respite, even when raiding someone else's settlement.

Remove F5 completely? I don't think that is a good idea. Removing it would deprive you of one valid and interesting choice: Do I want to take my chances and stay here or do I want to respawn somewhere else faster? Yes, the faster part of this is currently not really in the game. I'm likely going to change this in the way that we will reset someone's HP to 0 if they press F5 or get ganked. Then you actually have to make a decision if you want to respawn in the shortest time (but away) or wait here and take your chances.

Add more spawn points? Totally possible. We'll re-evaluate this when we start increasing the map size again.

Cheers & thanks for the feedback!

Alex

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Jeole
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Re: Fixing Respawn

Postby Jeole » 05 Nov 2015, 14:45

Hey,

I am really concerned about this matter, and I thought of different solutions, I think at least one is worth giving. First I will bounce back on what Alex said:

dbltnk wrote:a) To remove the amount of spawn-killing newbies have to endure. If you get killed at your spawn point 15 times in a row and never have a chance to get away then this leads to a lot of (justified) rage-quitting. Teleporting them away to a different spawn was a fast fix to this problem. We might change this into a popup that asks you where you'd like to spawn and offer you a couple more options.

The thing is with this 75m radius, you force ppl to change area at each death, I think the radius is too large. Sorry but I don't think that someone that is killed defending a carcass/metor/refinery is spawn camped. See this map, where you can see that almost all interesting points are inside the 75m radius of the nearest point...
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dbltnk wrote:b) To get the defending clan out of their settlement if the attacker is wiping them there. It just is not a great experience if you manage to kick an enemy clan out of their settlement and then they insta-respawn there in full force after 5 seconds. There is a need for some respite, even when raiding someone else's settlement.

I totally agree with you, but the current system is overkill. What if the defenders spawn inside the settlement, but NOT with full force to quote you. I came up with this idea:

  • if F5 respawn alive with the current life you had regenerated when your were KO, if ganged respawn with 0% hp/energy but alive
  • set radius of spawn camp protection to something small like 20m
  • make the F5 take a certain time to act: egal or greater than the gang cast so ppl can't avoid it when someone cast it on them

The low hp/energy make it useless to zerg respawn, you need some time to heal yourself (and regroup maybe), this counter the "full force" without rest problem. The gang will allow you to increase your time you can rest before they come back with a decent hp/energy.


Concerning sieges, I would think that giving a special respawn point for attackers could be good too. I will surely create a post concerning feedback on siege only tonight.

ps: only my personal thoughts there.

Jeole
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dbltnk
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Re: Fixing Respawn

Postby dbltnk » 05 Nov 2015, 15:07

Thanks Jeole, good input!

Here's a first draft of how the new respawn-away-zones could look like:

spawns.png

ManuKuma
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Re: Fixing Respawn

Postby ManuKuma » 06 Nov 2015, 12:29

Assumed goals of the respawn system:
- easy, simple, understandable
- give players a choice between taking a chance at local respawn or a quick way out
- prevent zerg respawning (especially inside bases while sieged)
- allow players to leave a camped spawnpoint
- gank should be worth something
- revive should be worth something
- do not allow players to completely negate a ganking attempt
- no random, annyoing relocation, have to understand what will happen on respawn
- keep down worthless and annoying traveltimes during active pvp while keeping death meaningful
- no insta-full-loot
- death-time is not boring
- want to give the winner the option to loot and still leave the looser in place


Problems with presented solutions:
- any kind of spawn-zone must be visualized somehow -> adds much complexity for a simple problem
- only sometimes showing a respawn choice window is difficult to communicate why -> adds much complexity for a simple problem
- Gank-protection after respawn needs visualization -> adds much complexity for a simple problem
- Spawn point priorization needs UI -> adds much complexity for a simple problem
- a general respawn choice window adds complexity, but may be ok (and could also be used for planned relocation by suicide - which could be an interesting option to cut down traveltimes at the expense of being naked)

Possible solution:
- Ganking removes some HP and forces relocation to nearest spawnpoint (still dead, no F5 option) (-> gank is worth something)
- Revive heals some HP and enables to get up ( -> revive is worth something)
- F5 has a cast time similar to revive and gank (-> cannot completely negate a ganking attempt)
- F5 and gank relocate the corpse to the nearest spawnpoint (-> no random relocation )
- F5 enables to get up immediately with current health (after relocating to the spawn point) ( -> quick way out option, but no zerging due to regeneration needs)
- while dead you are free to move your ghost and bind it to another spawnpoint ( -> allows players to leave a camped spawnpoint)
- more spawn points (-> keep down traveltimes, balanced, because spawns are available for anyone (may be camped to deny spawn -> encourages pvp / areacontrol)
- "cast time" for looting (-> prevents insta-full-loot)


Possible extensions:
- Gank enables armor loot, otherwise its only inventory&weapon loot (-> gank is worth something & prevents insta-full-loot)
- while dead you are free to move your ghost and leech some energy from players for a little faster regeneration ( -> deathtime not so boring)
- make spawnpoints build up a spawnwave to encourage teamplay+pvp instead of solo rushing ( and maybe you can use ghost energy leeching to speedup the wave)
- make spawnpoints have aoe with a little healing to give them a more unique feeling and to add diversity and structure to the world
Last edited by ManuKuma on 27 Nov 2015, 22:53, edited 3 times in total.

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dbltnk
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Re: Fixing Respawn

Postby dbltnk » 07 Nov 2015, 14:56

Yes, good points in there! Noted.

Alex

ManuKuma
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Re: Fixing Respawn

Postby ManuKuma » 27 Nov 2015, 22:56

What are the current plans for the spawn system? The blogpost sounds like the min-distance to a spawn will stay - I wonder what the exact reason for that mechanic is...

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dbltnk
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Re: Fixing Respawn

Postby dbltnk » 28 Nov 2015, 21:08

Nothing is decided until it's implemented. Right now there are still many, many details do be designed.

As for why the current rule existed in the 1st place:

a) Getting spawn-camped sucks.
b) Insta-spawning siege defenders are OP.

And of course

c) Designing complex, nuanced solutions takes time.


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