Discussion: HP vs DPS

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Pavlov
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Re: Discussion: HP vs DPS

Postby Pavlov » 12 Feb 2015, 20:03

dbltnk wrote:Yes, that's a part of it. but I also want to encourage "unstructured" or "creative" PvP such as "lets raid someone who's currently farming " or let's try to sneak in clan X's settlement". How do I reward/encourage this explicitly without destroying the experience by making it farmable?


Ah, to do that you'd have to make it so that the person dieing in PvP looses something of equal or greater value than the Exp the killer gains. It would probably be best as an Exp for Exp thing.

For instance, maybe when someone gains Exp from certain sources, it takes a while to become 'permanent'. During this time, if you are killed, you loose some of that Exp, and your killers gain the same (or a lesser) amount.

Alternatively, you could make PvP a decent way of getting the Exp 'trinkets' from people. Maybe the trinkets take an hour to 'ripen' before they can be used, so you can't just use them as the drop, and people can steal them from you. If there's some incentive to stockpile trinkets in a settlement, then there could be a method of stealing them when raiding that settlement.

The difficulty with both of these options is that it is already fairly punishing to be killed/robbed. If it's balanced incorrectly, either of these methods could cause a spiral of 'Exp stolen' -> 'Falls behind in levels' -> 'Can't protect Exp' -> 'More Exp stolen'. But something similar could probably be made to work.

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PsychoRomeo
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Re: Discussion: HP vs DPS

Postby PsychoRomeo » 12 Feb 2015, 23:02

dbltnk wrote:Yes, that's a part of it. but I also want to encourage "unstructured" or "creative" PvP such as "lets raid someone who's currently farming " or let's try to sneak in clan X's settlement". How do I reward/encourage this explicitly without destroying the experience by making it farmable?


Remove the risk. Basically, if I was going to go do something stupid in the interest of fun, I would leave all the risk behind at home.

When I would go raiding in minecraft, I wouldn't carry diamonds with me. Yeah, bringing leather instead of diamond armor significantly hurts my chances of beating the active defender, but it's not worth risking my diamond armor.

The problem is when you then have droves of naked people running around trying to achieve something at the loss of nothing. That's just dirty, and really shouldn't be promoted in any way.

Here lies the problem with games with hefty death penalties. To take risks you need disposable income. But at the point where you have disposable income, why are you even bothering to take risks?

I think the key is to make the resources you'd lose on death common, but make the items that are raiding incentives rare. I think something like blueprints are the key here.
Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.

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dbltnk
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Re: Discussion: HP vs DPS

Postby dbltnk » 13 Feb 2015, 13:50

Pavlov wrote:Ah, to do that you'd have to make it so that the person dieing in PvP looses something of equal or greater value than the Exp the killer gains. It would probably be best as an Exp for Exp thing.

Hmm yes, that would get rid of the exploitability. But since humans are generally very risk-averse and fear loss more than they are looking forward to gain I expect this to lead to A LOT less PvP action in the game. Both by veterans (who will optimize for the safe gains) and noobs (who will be afraid to lose their pixels/XP).

Other ideas?

@PsychoRomeo
I feel that we've already minimized the risk of random PvP. My question is: Can we (besides this) encourage that behaviour even more?

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Pavlov
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Re: Discussion: HP vs DPS

Postby Pavlov » 13 Feb 2015, 16:26

dbltnk wrote:But since humans are generally very risk-averse and fear loss more than they are looking forward to gain I expect this to lead to A LOT less PvP action in the game. Both by veterans (who will optimize for the safe gains) and noobs (who will be afraid to lose their pixels/XP).


There may be some truth in this, but players will only take the easy route if there's one readily available. You've shown that to gain maximum Exp, players are going to have to do a variety of different activities. Some of these activities seem to necessitate leaving safe areas (like guild bases). This ensures there will always be potential targets. Note that in both the examples above, players looking to start PvP have ways to ensure they don't loose Exp from failed ventures (e.g. having only 'permanent' Exp, not carrying their own trinkets). The rest would be a matter of adjusting the amount of time Exp says temporary, or the time trinkets take to become usable.

As long as the game doesn't provide ways for players to gain all their Exp in a completely safe fashion, players will have to go out and risk PvP.

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dbltnk
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Re: Discussion: HP vs DPS

Postby dbltnk » 13 Feb 2015, 16:39

Pavlov wrote:Some of these activities seem to necessitate leaving safe areas (like guild bases). This ensures there will always be potential targets.

As long as the game doesn't provide ways for players to gain all their Exp in a completely safe fashion, players will have to go out and risk PvP.

That is the point of mob camps and resources and events and all, exactly.

Still, all of these are very directed and thusly not very sandbox-y activites. And I want to encourage free-form behaviour as much as I can. Will think about the gain-xp-lose-xp idea but I'm not sure yet.

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Re: Discussion: HP vs DPS

Postby ManuKuma » 29 Mar 2015, 00:39

some thoughts on the pvp system balance:
- higher level gear is not more powerful, but has exaggerated risk vs. reward. Is most useful with compensating team or high individual player skill.
- everyday equipment is sad to loose but expendable, because its not worth to equip something else (not forced to, because not really more powerful)
- killing random players that do or have nothing else you want has no incentive, because there is no gain
- killing better equipped players is quite possible, if you can exploit their equipments risky side. but you have to expect a player skill matching the equipment
- pvp will have a reason (want equipment, want to hinder opponent, taking part in event or resource fight, caught during attempt to steal, want to get carried resorces), else not worth the risk
- if high level equipment is not mandatory, what are the ultimate incentives? final win condition? some permanent resource sinks linked to final win condition needed - like keeping the civilian populace of your settlement alive and fed (or collecting enough favours from the neutral or a some clans settlement by supplying that)
- incentivate player interaction? xp-essence accumulating, that can no used by self and only be given not taken? gives reason to intimidate, ambush, fight, but not ultimately kill and steal equipment ... clans will have an xp-essence exchange in place (absolute capped, most interesting early game?), single players can barter with it? (edit: dumb idea..)
- xp only from potentially pvp-related activities, not from kills themselves
- ...
Last edited by ManuKuma on 29 Mar 2015, 23:49, edited 3 times in total.

ManuKuma
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Re: Discussion: HP vs DPS

Postby ManuKuma » 29 Mar 2015, 00:44

- the elsewhere mentioned relics could also be a nice pvp incentive + win related item + permanent resource sink (need fuel for activation of buffs)

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Re: Discussion: HP vs DPS

Postby ManuKuma » 29 Mar 2015, 23:46

.. of course per-player sources of anything are a bad idea, because exploitable by multi-chars. xp-givers, mules, ... Anything an additional char brings into the game has to be easily obtainable without multi-chars...

My current mental model of the economy ...

time -> +xp
activity -> +xp
xp-items -> +xp

xp -> +skills

control of sources and transport -> +resources
resources -> +buildings
resources -> +crafting (equipment)
buildings -> +skills available
buildings -> +crafting (equipment)

skills -> more versatile and powerful
equipment -> more extreme loadouts

special items -> +buffs +risk +win points (small = food, large = epic items)

pvp -> win or loose loot +- (xp-items, equipment, resources, control)

control of event target -> +(xp-items , equipment, resources)

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Infamy
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Re: Discussion: HP vs DPS

Postby Infamy » 30 Mar 2015, 02:44

It sounds like a great idea, but have more of a difference when chasing/running.
Lowering movespeed when wounded is a great idea, or something of that sort.

Something that forces a runner to stand and fight, or an opportunity to wound the chaser and escape unnoticed.


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